Posts by Disillusioned JW

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

Yes Phizzy the JW Org's view of being " Spirit Directed" is very muddled. I agree with you about that and about the evidence showing they are not directed by Jehovah's spirit. I remember reading in one article by the WT Society that the WT Society while saying the holy spirit is not a person also says specifically that it has intelligence. When I read that I was thinking "Huh? If it has intelligence doesn't that mean it must be a person, or does the WT mean intelligence in some way like an AI (artificial intelligence) computer program?"

I never thought of using non-WT literature to prepare talks to be given at the Kingdom Halls, and while an active JW I never even owned non-WT books about the Bible or theology. I did notice though that my JW mother and her JW parents both had a non-WT Bible Dictionary (the same Bible Dictionary edition). I suspect that particular Bible Dictionary (and a RSV Bible) was once made available to the JWs through the literature counter (prior to the WT producing the Aid book). It was the one called The New Bible Dictionary, edited by Douglas. I now own a used copy of that book. It is copyright 1962.

After I became inactive and obtained old WT books (most of which I found from a thrift store, though some I bought on eBay) I later noticed in a WT book from the 1940s (the decade that the Theocratic Ministry School was created) that the WT invited JWs to make use of conservative Bible dictionaries and commentaries (though with caution) in preparing talks for JW congregations. The WT also encouraged them to use Bible concordances, including ones which stated the underlying Hebrew or Greek word for the English translation, and to see how the word was used throughout the Bible, in order to see what the Bible teaches on that topic. I recall that it is an approach which the WT says that Russell used in his study groups (before he created Zion's Watch Tower) to learn what the Bible said about the soul and hell and other words used in the KJV Bible.

While Bible commentaries are useful I notice that what they say often conflict with each other. That makes it disconcerting, to me, and challenging when using those commentaries.

Like you, I also am displeased by the WT's "Quote Mining" and by their dishonesty. Their frequent dishonesty it makes me wonder if the people in charge of the WT's writings really think of themselves as faithful true Christians.

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

Disillusioned JW

Rocketman123, you are right in saying the following.

OK how about apostate liars, who the bible says to not listen to.
They announced that they are modern day prophets and continued to say things that were false and unscriptural ie, 1914

The more I read the WT's literature the more false statements I see in their literature and the less reliable their literature appears to me. Matters are now at the point where I must fact check every statement I read in their literature before I consider it true (if I ever consider it true), unless I already discovered certain ideas stated by them to be true. Regarding their literature I must act in the way that Paul wrote that the ancient Boreans did - but not just in regards to Bible quotes and alleged Bible teachings, but in regards to all of the quotes by the WT and in regards to all of the definitions the WT gives (such as I did regarding the definitions of "cult", "apostate", "creationism", and "prophet"). At some point I will likely sell virtually all of the remaining books I have of the WT (but probably not for some editions of their NWT Bible, for comparison purposes).

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

Disillusioned JW

Rattigan350, regarding Paul claiming to be a prophet, at Galatians 1:12, besides the NIV, both the Holman Christian Standard Bible and the New Living Translation also say ".. from Jesus Christ."

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

Disillusioned JW

Rattigan350, though the WT claims the word 'prophet' can merely mean someone who speaks for God by explaining the Bible, they are incorrect. At the very minimum the word 'prophet' (in the biblical sense) means someone who claims that God (or some other supernatural being) gave them the message they are speaking. All of the ones in the Bible which are called prophets are ones who claim that God gave them the message to them directly (or through an angel [such as in the book of Daniel] and/or through Christ [such as in the book of Revelation] - they are not merely explaining the words attributed to God in the scriptures.

The apostle Paul claimed to foretell the future. For example, he says that at the presence (or coming) of Christ those Christians who are dead will rise first and then those who are living, and that together they will meet the Lord in the air. Those specifics are not in the Hebrew Scriptures nor in the gospels.

He also clamed that his gospel (he wrote the words "my gospel") was given to him by the Lord and by so doing he claimed to be acting as a prophet for the Lord (whether Yahweh and/or Jesus). See Romans 2:16; 16:25; II Timothy 2:8. He clams to have received a revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ himself - see Galatians 1:12 (KJV) where he says "by the revelation of Jesus Christ". Note that the NIV says ".. from Jesus Christ." That verse in the NASB (Updated) says "For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." By saying I neither received it from man, that includes not receiving it from scriptures penned by a man (or by men). If he received it from the scriptures or even from a living human prophet, at best he would be receiving it secondhand. But insists he received it firsthand from a being in heaven (whether God or Christ)!

The following are excerpts from Galatians chapter 1 [NASB (Updated)].

. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

...
11For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

...

15But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles ...

20(Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.) "

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

Disillusioned JW

waton, Yes in the 1920s - 1950s or so they did teach that the Great Tribulation went into a hiatus. But by the 1970s they had abandoned that teaching. Right? Even if they didn't abandon it the book of Revelation when speaking of those having come out of the Great Tribulation are talking about coming out something which has not happened (and from my atheistic view never will happen). The WT is incorrect in their interpretation of much of the book of Revelation.

Regarding the comment of "50 people that were living in 1909 are still alive today btw", it does not contradict my comment of "Everyone who was age 30 or older on January 1, 1930 are now dead and thus no one of them was ever part of a great crowd which came out of the great tribulation (nor who have any chance of coming out of the great tribulation) of the type mentioned in the book of Revelation!". I chose my words very carefully, for I know that some people who were alive in 1914 are still alive today - though all of them are under the age of 120 years. Another way of saying "Everyone who was age 30 or older on January 1, 1930 are now dead" is "Everyone who was born before January 1, 1900 is now dead".

The WT is still wrong for saying in the 1920s and on January 1, 1930 that millions alive then will never die and when they spoke of the millions they referring to the great crowd (and perhaps including the anointed ones). Their teaching of "millions now living will never" die was first proclaimed in the 1920s! 50 people is far less than millions, thus their prediction failed!

179

The Watchtower is NOT a false prophet

by The Quiet One in

regarding what some have said here about the wt being a false prophet.. i would like to make my point regarding the wt not being a false prophet... so please, if you can be patient enough to read this, at least try to understand what i am getting at.. a false prophet is one who, according to deuteronomy, makes a false prediction of the future and claims that the prediction came from god, or in other words claiming that 'god has said he will do a certain thing at a certain time' etc.. for example, hypothetically speaking, if someone had claimed: "god will bring about the end of the world in 2010", they would have been proven to be a false prophet, obviously.

but, as an example, imagine a man who claimed the position of a prophet of god, (as moses did, because although he was not the type of prophet that predicted the future.. he was still a prophet or spokesman for god) and that he had publicised worldwide, according to his interpretation of a (for example) prophecy found in the book of isaiah, that the world would end in 2010.. and he had also stated that he was not saying that god will end the world in that year.. but only that there was biblical evidence that god might do so.

that would clearly have been a mistake.

Disillusioned JW

Like the WT did in a WT article in the 1970s where they said JW are in some sense of a "prophet" to my shock I noticed yesterday that they are saying that again, though with more careful wording! I noticed such in the 2006 WT publication (the most recently copyrighted WT book I have obtained) called Live With Jehovah's Day In Mind. Notice what it says on pages 165-167. [By the way I obtained that book in the year 2006, I think, but I didn't start reading it (other than to browse it) until a few days ago. Back in 2006 I was not attending any JW meetings other than the memorial and perhaps some assemblies and conventions.] Page 166 says 'As we noted in Chapter 1 of this book, the words "prophet' and "prophetic" have a variety of meanings. Although you may not be a prophet in the sense that Amos or the other ancient prophets were, you can still speak out about the future.' [Notice the wishy washy language of "Although you may not be ..." when they could have correctly simply said (at least in regards to JWs) "Although you not ...".] The caption at the top of the page says 'From the early part of the 20th century down to our day, God's people have been "prophesying" '. Note that in the 1970s article they have the word 'prophet' in double quote marks while saying that JWs were a "prophet" and in the 2006 book they have the word 'prophesying' in double quote marks while saying that JWs (whom they refer to as God's people) have been "prophesying"! If JWs are prophesying then they are false prophets for much of what they are proclaiming is false. The WT is putting their JW followers into the category of being labeled as false prophets. Shame on the WT and its governing body for doing such.

On page 167 in reference to a prophecy in the book of Joel which says there would be a time when Jehovah's people (ancient Jews and/or Israelites) of every sort would prophecy, the WT dishonestly diminishes the meaning by saying "so to speak". The verses in Joel literally mean, in the full sense of the word "prophet", that the people would become prophets - with each of them literally receiving prophetic messages directly from Jehovah God by way of dreams and visions! The book of Joel did not simply mean in the sense of proclaiming messages found in the scriptures (as the WT implies on pages 166-167) but rather in the full sense of proclaiming messages that the people personally as individuals received directly from God (and thus literally as prophets)! Using the incorrect interpretation ("spin") on what the Bible says the WT on page 167 deceptively says the following.

'Now consider our time, Joel's prophecy has been undergoing its major fulfillment since early in the 20th century. Spirit-anointed Christians--male and female, old and young--began to "prophesy," that is, to declare "the magnificent things of God," including the good news of the kingdom, now established in the heavens.

Though not begotten by holy spirit to be sons of God, "a great crowd" of 'other sheep" are telling the anointed followers of Jesus Christ: "We will go with people, for we have heard that God is with you people." '

How can the WT's writers have a clean conscience when saying such deceptive and outright false things while also claiming to faithful Christians? This is evidence that the WT leadership and/or its writers are charalatans and playing JWs (and other readers of WT literature) as fools!

Notice also they have backtracked on who the "great crowd" are. In the late 1990s they correctly identified the great crowd (according to the Bible) as being a future group, specifically defined as those who have come out of the great tribulation. But in the 2006 publication they are saying that group already exists. They are repeating the mistake they made in the 1920s (or 1930s) up through the mid-1990s about the great crowd already existing. Everyone who was age 30 or older on January 1, 1930 are now dead and thus no one of them was ever part of a great crowd which came out of the great tribulation (nor who have any chance of coming out of the great tribulation) of the type mentioned in the book of Revelation!

Reading pages 165-167 of the above mentioned book irritates me and make even more want to officially resign from the JW religion (in writing) so I can repudiate the WT leadership and be on record for doing such and be on record for leaving their religion, except I refrain from doing so because I still wish to have social contact with my two surviving immediate JW family members.

9

Is the Watchtower Organization Playing a Practical Joke on JWs?

by Disillusioned JW in

by a number of its teachings, rules, and practices is the wt organization playing a practical joke on jws?.

Disillusioned JW

Maybe instead of saying "Is the Watchtower Organization Playing a Practical Joke on JWs?" I should have said "Does the Watchtower Organization Regard its Readers as Fools and are they Secretly Laughing at Them?"

The WT literature has many times used odd language where they say one thing but word it in such a way as to suggest something else. They have said that a number of JWs drew incorrect expectations about a number of things, including about 1914 and 1975, though it was the WT itself which proclaimed and taught those expectations in the WT's literature to JWs. The WT, after they said it was a conscious matter for JWs to accept non-military service (such as being medical workers) instead of having to go to prison for refusal to engage in combat, said JWs were foolish to reject such an option - even though the WT previously said that those accepting such an option would be committing a grave wrong. A tremendous number of times the WT has made extravagant claims and have told JWs that they must agree with what the WT says or risk being shunned, yet later the WT abandoned a number of its claims saying their own claims were in error .

9

Just another failed prophecy ...

by EdenOne in

so, i was going through some consolation magazines of 1939, and found this absolute prediction by rutherford:.

only 8 years later .....

oooooopssss......!!.

Disillusioned JW

Along the lines of the old Consolation article note what the WT wrote published as late as in 1946 in their 1946 edition of the "Let God Be True" book on pages 207-209 (see http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/letgodbetrue/godbetrue16.html ).

"If more Jews are in the future gathered to Palestine, it will only

208

be a political, humanitarian gesture, and not of God's provision according to prophecy. God's promises concerning restoration are being fulfilled upon his spiritual Israelites, Jehovah's witnesses, who are the remnant of faithful followers of His Messiah.

...

20 The facts and prophecies prove that the natural Jews will never again be a chosen, re-gathered people. They have as a people flagrantly rejected the Messiah, his truth and his

209

kingdom. It is a false hope that they must be regathered to Palestine and be converted in mass to Jesus Christ prior to his second coming and as a sign of the early establishment of his kingdom. God's kingdom was established A.D. 1914, and then Christ Jesus came into Kingdom power at his Father's right hand, and this without any mass conversion of natural Jews to Christ. Much of their suffering has been brought upon themselves by their commercial, rebellious course of action. They will ever be a target of assault by Satan and his agents until Armageddon cleanses the earth of all opposers of Messiah-Christ. Therefore, their only hope is to accept Jehovah's Messiah, Christ Jesus, and come under the protection of his kingdom."

14

Eye-Opener

by ElderStuckin in

each eye-opener in my awakening had nothing to do with apostates.

it was always by looking directly at the so-called spiritual food that helped me awaken.. in 2019 they changed the wording of the second of two baptismal questions which are answered aloud before the audience.

now i realize that these questions have been adjusted over the years.

Disillusioned JW

Maybe they removed "spirit-directed" because people claim the WT is in essence claiming inspiration while making false predictions and proclaiming false doctrine, and thus being a false prophet.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

An interesting question posed in this topic thread is "How many beneficial mutations do you suppose it would take to get from Little Foot or Lucy to Homo Sapien in the proposed ~ 3 Million years?" In order to accurately calculate that we would need to know what the genome was for Little Foot and for Lucy. But we don't have that information because none of their genetic code has been preserved intact in their fossils, because the fossils are far to old. But even without that information there might be a way to estimate it.

What we do know is that the genetic code of modern day common chimpanzees and bonobos is about 96% the same with modern day Homo sapiens (previously the percentage was thought to be 98.8%; the 98.8% was calculated based only upon "single-nucleotide changes to the genetic code"). [See https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chimps-humans-96-percent-the-same-gene-study-finds .] Both Little Foot and Lucy are much more closely related to us (which is known based upon comparisons of their skeletal structure) than modern day common chimpanzees and bonobos. As a result the genetic code of them when they were alive must have been even more identical to ours than are the chimps and bonobos to us. [Note: When some scientists use the word chimpanzees they are including bonobos in the classification called chimpanzees, along with the common chimpanzees, thus classifying two different species as chimpanzees. The bonobo, in the past was commonly also referred to as the "pygmy chimpanzee", and today it still sometimes is. Both common chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and bonobos (Pan paniscus) are of the same taxonomic genus, namely Pan. The genus name "Pan" means "chimpanzee".]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(genus) says "The chimpanzee (P. troglodytes) who lives north of the Congo River, and the bonobo (P. paniscus) who lives south of it, were once considered to be the same species, but since 1928 they have been recognized as distinct.[6] In addition, P. troglodytes is divided into four subspecies, while P. paniscus is undivided. Based on genome sequencing, these two extant Pan species diverged around one million years ago. ... Chimpanzees and bonobos are equally humanity's closest living relatives." Sadly the article also says "Both Pan species are considered to be endangered as human activities have caused severe declines in the populations and ranges of both species."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chimps-humans-96-percent-the-same-gene-study-finds says the following.

"The number of genetic differences between humans and chimps is ten times smaller than that between mice and rats.

...

Despite the similarities in human and chimp genomes, the scientists identified some 40 million differences among the three billion DNA molecules, or nucleotides, in each genome.

The vast majority of those differences are not biologically significant, but researchers were able to identify a couple thousand differences that are potentially important to the evolution of the human lineage.

...

Eichler and his colleagues found that the human and chimp sequences differ by only 1.2 percent in terms of single-nucleotide changes to the genetic code.

But 2.7 percent of the genetic difference between humans and chimps are duplications, in which segments of genetic code are copied many times in the genome."

Some scientists go so far as to say that humans are apes.

The above article also says the following.

"Humans and chimps originate from a common ancestor, and scientists believe they diverged some six million years ago.

Given this relatively short time since the split, it's likely that a few important mutations are responsible for the differences between the two species, according to Wen-Hsiung Li, a molecular evolutionist at the University of Chicago in Illinois.

...

There are several hypotheses that account for the evolution of human traits. Li believes these traits come from changes in the parts of the genome that regulate other gene activity."

Regarding information of how life might have got started (abiogenesis) an excellent book on that topic (besides those listed in another post of mine in this topic thread) is Genesis: The Scientific Quest for Life's Origin, by Robert M Hazen (with a Forward by David W Deamer). See https://www.nhbs.com/genesis-the-scientific-quest-for-lifes-origin-book for a description of that book. I very much enjoyed reading that book.